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FINANCE & ADMINISTRATION COMMITTEE MINUTES
SEPTEMBER 27, 1999
CITY OF KITCHENER
The Finance and Administration Committee met this date, Chaired by Councillor J. Ziegler, commencing
at 7:00 p.m., with the following members present: Councillor T. Galloway, Councillor J. Haalboom,
Councillor G. Lorentz, Councillor Jake Smola, Councillor John Smola, Councillor K. Taylor-Harrison,
Councillor C. Weylie. Mayor C. Zehr and Councillor M. Yantzi were in attendance for part of the meeting.
Officials present: Ms. L. Pasternak and Ms. D. Gilchrist.
1. REPORT OF THE AD HOC COMMITTEE ON PERMITTED/PROHIBITED ANIMALS
The Committee was in receipt of a report from Ms. L. Pasternak, Assistant City Solicitor, dated
September 17, 1999, providing the recommendations of the animal control ad hoc committee with
respect to permitted, prohibited and restricted animals. The report contained background
information in this regard as well.
The Committee was also in receipt of written submissions from the following: Ms. C. Church,
Carol's Critters; Mr. D. Brewster, PIJAC Ontario; Ms. L. White, Animal Alliance of Canada; Mr. K.
Stanke, The Ottawa Parrot Club; Mr. T. Seidle, Canadian Federation of Humane Societies; and
Mr. C. Holoboff representing the Aviculture Advancement Council of Canada, Parrot Symposium
of Canada, Budgerigar and Foreign Bird Society of Canada and the Parrot Association of Canada.
Councillor J. Ziegler welcomed those in attendance and advised that delegations would each be
permitted five minutes to make a presentation, following which the committee would discuss the
matter and make a recommendation that would be forwarded to City Council.
Ms. L. Pasternak, Assistant City Solicitor, outlined the report, including the background
information. She noted that this matter had previously been before the Finance and Administration
Committee who directed that a by-law be prepared. She stated that the contents of a draft by-law
were included in her schedule "B", attached to the report. Ms. Pasternak also spoke of the appeal
process proposed in the by-law amendments. She then reviewed the specific amendments to
each of the chapters of the City of Kitchener Municipal Code. Ms. Pasternak noted that the
prohibition on wild caught animals was the most controversial issue dealt with by the ad hoc
committee. She stated that this a compromise document.
Councillor B. Vrbanovic questioned whether there was agreement on the document and Ms.
Pasternak responded that there is primarily agreement on the document, although the rodent issue
has not been resolved. She stated that there was agreement on the wild caught animals.
Councillor M. Yantzi entered the meeting at this time.
Mr. W. Davey of the World Parrot Trust was the first delegation to address the Committee. He
stated that he was completely opposed to every word in the document. He felt that passing this
by-law would destroy habitats and species and that it was morally wrong. He felt that passing the
by-law would threaten species survival. He noted that it was his opinion that wild caught birds are
necessary for the survival of the species. He urged the Committee to throw the by-law out.
Councillor B. Vrbanovic questioned whether all Mr. Davey's birds are captive bread. Mr. Davey
responded that he prefers to deal with wild caught that are in this country to preserve the species.
He noted that he was not bringing in any new wild caught birds. He stated that there is a need for
genetic diversity.
The second delegation was Ms. C. Church, of Carol's Critters and a member of the ad hoc
committee. Ms. Church stated that the ad hoc committee members did agree to some things but
felt that some things had been removed from the ad hoc committee's report. She felt it was
necessary for wild caught animals to stay in the breeding programs in order to prevent extinction.
She felt that the committee was concentrating on the wrong area and also stated that education
was another thing to concentrate on.
Mr. K. Burgess of PIJC Canada addressed the Committee advising that the goal of that
organization is to develop responsible pet ownership. He felt that the proposed by-law was not
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in the best interest of the group that the City seeks to protect. He stated that he felt that there were
some inaccuracies in the by-law being proposed. Mr. Burgess then reviewed and criticized each
section of the proposed by-law. Mr. Burgess finally suggested that the City use the Toronto by-law
as a model.
Mr. P. Mostert of the Golden Triangle Parrot Club next addressed the Committee advising that he
objects to the by-law as it will take away his life long hobby. He spoke of the Golden Triangle
Parrot Club and what they do. He noted that the Federal government has passed comprehensive
laws prohibiting the import of certain wild animals and this by-law is totally unnecessary.
Councillor B. Vrbanovic questioned Mr. Mostert's concerns that this by-law would prevent the
current breeding program. Councillor Vrbanovic noted that they could continue to breed captive
animals. Mr. Mostert stated that he objects to the by-law because it prevents wild caught from
being introduced into the breeding program.
Mayor C. Zehr entered the meeting at this time.
In response to certain comments from Mr. Mostert, Ms. L. Pasternak advised that there is no
intention to have a pro-active registration program and that animals would be registered as they
are bought and also through complaints.
Ms. L. White of the Animal Alliance of Canada next addressed the Committee advising that she is
representing people interested in the by-law. She stated that she thought that a good job had
been done on this by-law and that it was creative and well balanced. She urged the Committee to
adopt the recommendations contained in the report. Ms. L. White went on to speak of legislation
passed by the Federal government with respect to the importation of certain wild animals. She
stated that she thought that the by-law before the Committee tonight was a superb piece of
legislation and urged them to pass it, stating that we should not allow people to have other
country's exotic animals.
Ms. J. Hutson addressed the Committee advising that she supports the positions and policies of
animal welfare organizations and agreed with Ms. C. Church that education is needed.
Dr. K. Davey advised the Committee of her credentials including that of a clinical psychologist.
She reviewed the specific sections in the by-law. She then spoke of the value of species
companions and the role of animals in improving the life of people with special needs.
Mr. C. Holoboff addressed the Committee advising that he is a lawyer and a Director for four of the
largest animal organizations in Canada. He stated that he was concerned about the contents of
the report and its effect on constituents. He offered several criticisms with respect to the contents
of the proposed by-law, of Federal law, and a Court of Appeal decision with respect to the City of
Toronto's by-law. Mr. Holoboff suggested that the Committee make it simple for its constituents
and use the same by-law as is now in effect in Toronto. He requested that the by-law be re-
drafted to remove wild caught and volunteered his services to the ad hoc committee. Councillor B.
Vrbanovic requested some clarification with respect to the Ontario Court of Appeal Decision which
he thought had to do with exotic animals in relation to circuses. Mr. Holoboff offered his
explanation of the case.
Dr. Soots, new General Manager of the Humane Society addressed the Committee advising that
he personally was not in support of the by-law, stating that there will be an increased cost. He
stated that he has reviewed the City of Toronto by-law and agreed with the previous speaker. He
felt that the by-law before the Committee tonight was cumbersome and would be difficult to
enforce. He stated that he believed that whatever can be legally imported into Canada should be
legally permitted, except those things which are a hazard to the public.
Upon questioning by Councillor C. Weylie, Ms. L. Pasternak advised that the Humane Society sat
in on all the discussions. She noted that this by-law will be reactive and will result from complaints.
Councillor B. Vrbanovic questioned who represented the Humane Society
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previously and was advised that it was Dr. Hess. When questioned, Ms. Pasternak advised that
the Humane Society was in support of the recommendations all the way along and questioned
whether there was a change in the view of the Humane Society now. Dr. Soots advised that this
was his personal opinion and whatever the City decides the Humane Society will support.
Mr. A. Risi of Aquarium Services next addressed the Committee advising that he is strongly
opposed to the by-law because of the wild caught. He noted that tropical fish industries started by
importing from the wild and if the by-law is passed, local breeders will not have access to wild
caught for breeding. He continued to advise of the need for wild caught in the breeding process.
Councillor J. Ziegler questioned whether tropical fish are prohibited and Ms. L. Pasternak advised
that wild caught would be prohibited.
Mr. T. Seidle of the Canadian Federation of Humane Societies addressed the Committee, noting
that the Federation has participated on the ad hoc committee and noting that the ad hoc committee
agreed to support the prohibition on wild caught. Mr. Seidle then reviewed various aspects of the
proposed by-law including fish, wild caught and rodents. He concluded by saying that there have
been a number of erroneous statements made and the Canadian Federation of Humane Societies
strongly supports the proposed by-law, as outlined in Schedule "B" of Ms. Pasternak's report and
recommends its adoption.
Councillor B. Vrbanovic raised a question concerning rodents and Ms. Pasternak advised that the
specifically name rodents are permitted. In this regard, Mr. Seidle advised that he agrees with the
by-law, stating that it was one of the many compromises made. Councillor Jake Smola questioned
other municipalities who have similar by-laws. Mr. Seidle responded that this by-law is unique with
respect to its list of permitted animals.
Mayor C. Zehr remarked on the number of e-mails he had received on this issue and questioned
why it was attracting so much attention. Mr. Seidle responded that people care very much about
animals and there is a full range of feelings on this subject.
Councillor M. Yantzi questioned whether it was possible to determine wild caught. Mr. Seidle
responded that he was not an expert in that area; however, recognized that although it may not be
legally enforceable, he felt, at the same time that Council should not condone it.
Mr. D. Brewster of PIJAC Ontario was in attendance and spoke of the City of Toronto's Animal
Control By-law including the problems they faced in reaching the final by-law. He felt that the City
of Toronto by-law should be used as a model for other municipalities. Mr. Brewster then reviewed
several issues with respect to the proposed by-law, which he felt was not legally sound. He
suggested that the City should stick to public health and safety and briefly reviewed what he
thought the Municipal Act allowed.
Mr. M. Koenig of Exotic Wings and Pet Things spoke to the Committee advising that he is a bird
breeder as well as a pet shop owner. Mr. Koenig suggested that the proposed by-law is open to
interpretation and that it should be referred back to the ad hoc committee to clarify some issues.
With respect to enforcement, he felt that the by-law would be sending out staff who would not
know how to deal with exotic species. He suggested that the by-law needs to be looked at again,
with respect to these points, as he felt they were not sound. Mr. Koenig also urged the Committee
to implement a by-law similar to the City of Toronto by-law.
Mr. B. Burtch advised that he has been a teacher in the Kitchener-Waterloo area for twenty-five
years and for many of those years worked with children with behavioural problems. He noted that
each year he established terrariums, etc., in the classroom in partnership with many of the pet
stores in the community. Mr. Burtch stated that he was concerned about a by-law that would
impact negatively on these businesses.
Mr. R. Conrad of Global Exotic Pets addressed the Committee about his concerns about the wild
caught portions of the proposed by-law. He noted that judging what is wild caught is very difficult.
He stated that his customers do not ask him for wild caught, except perhaps for the
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breeders. He also noted that all captive breeds came from wild caught.
Ms. M. Hamilton addressed the Committee advising that she was a member of the ad hoc
committee and had been since its beginning. She stated that she felt frustrated because she
thought that everyone on the ad hoc committee was in agreement. Ms. Hamilton noted that she
was in support of the by-law.
Ms. C. Church responded to a question from Mayor Zehr with regards to why people were upset
about this issue and stated that she did agree with the by-law until the removal of that portion
which would have allowed breeders to import wild caught animals.
Mr. R. Laidlaw then addressed the Committee stating that he felt the by-law was a good by-law
and complimented existing legislation. He noted that there were no regulations in existence
governing the keeping of wild life in captivity and that the onus for control is with the municipalities.
Mr. Laidlaw felt that trade in these animals was a bad thing and noted that there has not been a
lot of talk about the animals themselves. He suggested that the Committee think about the welfare
consideration of the animals. When questioned by Councillor J. Ziegler as to what he thought of
the Toronto by-law, Mr. Laidlaw responded that he felt it was a watered down by-law and not as
good as it should have been.
Ms. O. Sarnento advised that she is a geneticist and stated that to breeders, wild caught makes for
healthy breeding. She stated that animals kept for breeding are treated very well and that most
people do take adequate care of their animals.
Councillor K. Taylor-Harrison stated that she was a little confused as she thought everyone on the
ad hoc committee was in agreement and she was surprised by the presentations made this
evening.
Councillor Jake Smola advised that he was prepared to move the three recommendations
contained in the staff report.
Councillor B. Vrbanovic questioned Ms. Pasternak with respect to the Mayor's question as to how
this issue became so interesting. He also questioned the concerns of some of the delegations this
evening with respect to wild caught. Ms. Pasternak responded that the issue of wild caught was
specifically canvassed and she understood that the ad hoc committee was in agreement with a
ban on wild caught. She suggested that perhaps some of them did not understand the issue.
Councillor B. Vrbanovic referred to Schedule "A" in the Ms. Pasternak's report, specifically the last
paragraph which states that the new Council be urged to review the impact of the amendments.
He suggested that the problem could be dealt with by the Council of the day. Councillor Vrbanovic
stated that he supports the motion put forward by Councillor Jake Smola recognizing that
compromises have been made. He felt that the by-law made sense and it can be improved over
time by making the ad hoc committee permanent, as suggested in the report.
Councillor T. Galloway questioned Ms. Pasternak as to where in the Municipal Act the Council
derived the authority for such a by-law and Ms. Pasternak advised of the appropriate sections in
the Municipal Act. Councillor Galloway then questioned the financial implications and Ms.
Pasternak felt that major costs in this regard were not anticipated. A discussion then took place
with respect to the burden of proof and whether the Humane Society would keep a registry. Ms.
Pasternak noted that animal control by-laws have been changed in the past and the Humane
Society took on these changes without further cost. A brief discussion then took place with respect
to fines.
Councillor K. Taylor-Harrison noted that one of the delegation's from an aquarium store claims that
this by-law would put him out of business. Ms. Pasternak noted that the fish trade is not captive
bred and it would have some effect on the fish industry.
Mayor C. Zehr advised that he was supportive of the recommendations in the report. He stated
that the by-law may not be perfect but that it sets a standard for the municipality. He felt that the
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City would be making the right decision at the right time and that we need to proceed at this time.
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Mayor Zehr then noted that the Committee has received challenges, this evening, on its authority
to pass this by-law. Ms. Pasternak stated that she was of the opinion that the City does have the
authority and the by-law will stand any challenge. She then referred to the Peterborough by-law,
which she advised is also a reactive by-law and stated that it is a supportable by-law.
Councillor J. Ziegler questioned captive bred and Ms. Pasternak advised that it is simply criteria to
help the designation committee. She noted that it is a standard with other standards as to whether
an animal is appropriate to be kept as a pet. A brief discussion took place with respect to an
exemption for breeders and Ms. Pasternak advised that there is a problem in determining who is a
breeder and who is not. She stated that wild caught are not appropriate as pets.
On a motion by Councillor Jake Smola -
it was resolved:
"That Council approve amendments, to Chapter 408 (Animals-Regulation), Chapter 575
(Pet Shop) and By-law 98-185 (being a by-law to amend Chapter 530 with respect to
Dogs) of the City of Kitchener Municipal Code, as identified in Schedule "B" attached to
the report of Ms. L. Pasternak, Assistant City Solicitor, dated September 17, 1999; and,
That the ad hoc committee on the City's animal control by-laws be continued, with a
Councillor as the Chair; and further,
That the City staff representative on the ad hoc committee continue to act as the
resource person and not as a member."
Councillor J. Ziegler voted in opposition to the motion.
ADJOURNMENT
On motion the meeting adjourned at 9:30 p.m.
D. H. GILCHRIST
COMMITTEE ADMINISTRATOR