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HomeMy WebLinkAboutCtee of the Whole - 1996-01-29CW\1996-01-29 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE MINUTES JANUARY 29, 1996CITY OF KITCHENER The Committee of the Whole held a special meeting this date with all members present, except Councillor K. Redman. Officials Present:Ms. V. Gibaut and Messrs. T. McKay, T. McCabe, J. Gazzola, E. Kovacs, T. Clancy, L.F. Parkhouse, J. Hancock, J. Shivas, D. Paterson and G. Sosnoski. On motion by Councillor G. Lorentz it was agreed that, notwithstanding the Procedural By-law and given the nature of discussions, Mayor R. Christy would Chair the meeting. Mayor R. Christy outlined the proposed agenda involving discussion on Regional restructuring, City structure and service review, and long term budget philosophy. Mayor R. Christy asked for any additional items, and none were forthcoming. Mayor R. Christy encouraged staff comment and participation in the general discussions held this date. Councillor M. Yantzi suggested that Council should discuss the issues of governance from the City of Kitchener's perspective, mindful that there are many different views of governance within the Region. Councillor G. Lorentz also asked for some discussion on the apportioning of service delivery involving the Region and area municipalities. He offered the opinion that change for the sake of change is not desirable, and that any shifts in authority should be reviewed in light of sustainable, actual savings. Mr. T. McKay reviewed the history of local and regional government in Ontario, noting that despite numerous studies, there have been no locally generated changes in this area since regional government was initially imposed by the Province. He pointed out that it is unlikely there is enough local support for radical change, and that there is no political will at the Provincial level to impose further Regional changes. He also questioned whether there is a need for radical change and cited the findings of the water and wastewater portion of the Sweeney Review, wherein only $400,000.00 in potential savings were identified out of a budget of approximately $75,000,000.00. He suggested that this is hardly proof of a major problem within the system. Mr. T. McKay suggested that the municipality should look at how to refine and rationalize what is a good two-tier system and work to improve it by means other than radical change. In this regard, Mayor R. Christy referred to a previous motion of Kitchener Council supporting a strong two- tier system. Councillor M. Wagner added that there is a need to evaluate the services delivered by the City and how they interact with those of the Region in order to ensure proper service and access. He agreed with the comments made by Mr. McKay regarding the strength of the current system. Mr. T. McCabe advised that he supports rationalization of services between the City and Region, noting that in his estimation there is duplication in the area of planning. He observed that everything in the Sweeney Report, except the conclusion, supports retaining a two-tier system. He suggested that in the area of planning, development decisions should be made at the local level and that this is consistent with Provincial trends. In regard to the trading of responsibilities, Mr. McCabe noted that the City does not have expertise in the area of environmental planning and that the Region should be treated as a resource in this regard. He suggested that the Region should not be involved at all in commercial planning, on the basis that the City has provided for this already without the need for a formal plan amendment. He also acknowledged that the Region has more resources in transportation and heritage planning and questioned whether the area of heritage protection could not be a Regional responsibility. In closing, he advised that he supports a strong two-tier system with the elimination of overlap and duplication. Ms. V. Gibaut pointed out that, at present, there is no economic development role at the Regional level and referred to the two major activities involving business attraction and retention. She noted that her Department spends the bulk of its time on business retention, and that all of the expansion in the municipality over the last year has involved local businesses. Ms. Gibaut added that presently, business attraction is handled well through Canada's Technology Triangle (C.T.T.), initially formed in 1987. She suggested that this is a viable marketing entity which is recognized outside of the area and throughout the world. Councillor M. Wagner noted that the fact remains that seven municipalities have economic development functions and work from multiple perspectives. He suggested the need for a stronger area voice in economic development, especially in light of the recent Golden Report on the Greater Toronto area, noting that perhaps the C.T.T. can fill this role. Mr. T. McKay noted that there are dual responsibilities in both Planning and Economic Development and that there is a need to define what each level of government can best do in these areas. Mr. J. Gazzola questioned the entire notion of "bigger is better", noting that this may work theoretically in the area of business; however, in the public sector where profit is not the sole governing motive, there are COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE MINUTES JANUARY 29, 1996- 4 -CITY OF KITCHENER areas such as Transit where bigger is not better. In response to a question from Councillor Jake Smola, Mr. Gazzola advised of recent discussions he has had with the Waterloo Conservative Businessmen's Association, where the issue of amalgamating Kitchener and Waterloo was addressed. It was found that, in most areas, amalgamation would not be less expensive, noting that costs usually rise to the highest level and that uniformly attaining this higher level requires expenditures. He also stressed that the larger a government, the less accountability. Councillor Jake Smola referred to projected savings involving a combined Kitchener and Waterloo Fire Dispatch and Mr. McKay noted that there would be no savings unless the level of service is the same and used the example of Kitchener versus Waterloo expenditures in the area of public libraries. Mr. E. Kovacs referred to his investigations regarding the Water Utility and acknowledged the need for a co-ordinated over-arching role as regards long term growth. He pointed out that the Sweeney Review found very few areas of inefficiency and overlap, and this would seem to suggest that they are either not there in significant numbers, or that the Review did not look closely enough. Mr. Kovacs offered the opinion that the current division between water supply and waste treatment/disposal needs to be defined clearly, vis-a-vis, the role of the Region, and that this differentiation is valid in a two-tier system. He suggested that in the area of hard services, it is hard to see where there could be significant cost reductions or greater efficiencies. Councillor T. Galloway pointed out that in the area of water and wastewater there would likely be a net water rate increase as a result of centralizing responsibility. He also noted that it is perceived that whoever controls water delivery controls development and at the Regional level there is a concern in terms of spreading development opportunities more evenly throughout the Region. Councillor T. Galloway expressed his satisfaction with the current arrangement from the Kitchener perspective. In response to a question from Councillor G. Lorentz, Mr. Kovacs advised that efficiencies have already been implemented in the area of local resources being used to maintain Regional roads. He acknowledged that traffic flow and control should be a Regional responsibility, as it is at present. In response to a question from Councillor Jake Smola concerning the possibility of a Regional transit system, Mr. McKay replied that presently both Kitchener and Waterloo have an integrated system and that to connect Kitchener and Cambridge is not cost effective due to the low movement between the two Cities. He suggested that the only way to rationalize Regional transit is through higher costs, and Mr. Gazzola agreed noting that the overall cost of Regional transit would be a net increase in cost to Kitchener taxpayers. Mr. McKay suggested that as a guideline services are best left at the local level where these benefit from density. Mr. T. Clancy suggested that there is very little interaction between the Parks and Recreation Department and the Region, though there is some in the areas of maintenance and environmental initiatives. Mr. McKay referred to possible overlap in the area of culture, particularly the Centre In The Square, which he characterized as a major Regional attraction/asset, owned and operated by the City. He also made reference to Regional trails and bicycle paths and the Ottawa landfill site. Mr. L.F. Parkhouse advised that there is very little if any duplication or contact between the General Services and City Clerk's Department and the Region. He pointed out that, at present, there is co- operation in the area of bulk purchasing, and that though there are probably areas of overlap in Facilities Management and Fleet these would be few. Fire Chief J. Hancock commented that as regards the Fire service, there may be some economies of scale and minor overlap; however, to date he has seen no models which would result in significant cost savings. He cautioned Council that any model which eliminates volunteer services would result in cost increases. He also pointed out that at present he acts as a co-ordinator for Fire service delivery throughout the Region and that a mutual aid group meets regularly, with strong co-operation. Fire Chief Hancock referred to recent activity involving the amalgamation of Fire dispatch for the Cities of Kitchener and Waterloo and referred to the problems associated with serving two separate Councils. He recommended that either Fire service remain in the hands of the individual municipalities, or that there be a serious look at a Regional Fire service. Mr. J. Gazzola suggested that there may be a parallel in comparing the cost impact of regionalizing Police services. Councillor Galloway noted that historically when this type of service is amalgamated it tends to gravitate to the highest level and as a result, costs are increased with little or no resulting savings. Councillor Wagner suggested that regionalization of Fire services should be looked at more closely, or alternately, more cost-effective forms of integration. He stressed the need for a financial analysis of the options as opposed to an expression of opinion. Councillor Lorentz questioned the appropriateness of a Regional Fire service on the basis of the ballooning cost of Police services. Mr. J. Shivas cautioned Council against amalgamating services with no clear and substantiated cost savings. He indicated his general support for greater decision making power at the local level, as this COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE MINUTES JANUARY 29, 1996- 5 -CITY OF KITCHENER results in greater citizen access and can have a direct impact on the community. In this regard, he suggested pursuing amendments to the Municipal Act to give more decision making power to local municipalities. Mr. T. McKay questioned whether there would be any opportunity for regionalizing general Solicitor's services, for example those relating to land purchase. Mr. Shivas replied that some discussion has taken place with the Regional Solicitor, and that there may be problems with a regionalized service acting for a specific municipal Council. He indicated his willingness to pursue investigation in this area; however, he stated that Council should proceed cautiously in regard to amalgamating legal services. It was noted that municipal Solicitors throughout the Region already meet to share information and decisions in an effort to avoid duplication. Councillor J. Ziegler indicated that he did not agree with the comments of Mr. Shivas and referred to lawyers routinely representing multiple clients. He also pointed out that both Cambridge and Waterloo contract legal services and have no in-house solicitors. He suggested that it may be possible to establish a fund to provide for legal services from the private sector. Councillor Ziegler indicated his agreement with the general comment of Mr. Shivas that amalgamation should not occur without specified savings. Councillor Wagner suggested that it may be possible to develop specific areas of legal expertise which could be accessed by municipalities on a fee for service basis. Mr. D. Paterson commented from the Human Resources perspective and suggested that there may be economies of scale in this area, though he was not sure as to amounts. He pointed out that at present there is already considerable dialogue between Human Resources Divisions at the Region and the municipal level, and referred to differing corporate cultures. Mr. T. McKay stated that when the Regional Review was established he had strongly advocated that it identify improvements which could be implemented with no political fallout, and to look at areas where the Region and the municipalities could better work together. He suggested that it would be worth investigating the possible amalgamation of Human Resources, Tax and Utility Billing, Purchasing and Fire Dispatch Services. A general discussion then took place concerning Regional governance issues involving the possibility of separated Councils with direct election to Regional Council, as well as election of the Regional Chairman. Councillor T. Galloway advised that he supports separately elected local and Regional Councils, despite some disadvantages. He commented that a strong two-tiered system would suggest this arrangement and improve accountability at the Regional level. Councillor J. Ziegler disagreed, noting that in his view the public wants municipal Councillors sitting on both local and Regional councils on the basis of their knowledge of local issues and concerns. He added that the two-tier system in this area is one of the better models in the Province, but that improvements should be on-going. He offered the opinion that bigger is not better, especially in terms of local accountability. Councillor M. Yantzi offered the opinion that there should be a separately elected and reduced Regional Council, noting that rural and urban representation is problematic in its current form. He stressed the need to improve the interaction between staff and Council at the Regional level, as well as the need for Regional Council to challenge staff to a greater degree than in the past. Councillor Yantzi voiced his support for the election of a Regional Chair, noting that at minimum all members of Regional Council should be elected, with they themselves electing one of their number as the Regional Chairman. He suggested that the budget for elected officials should go down regardless; however, there should not be fewer elected officials making more money. Councillor G. Lorentz voiced his disagreement over the concept of separately elected Councils, noting that it would be both confusing and counter-productive in terms of which politician should be contacted for a particular problem or jurisdiction. He suggested that a true representation on Regional Council would reflect population size, which in his view is very important. He also advised that he does not support election of the Regional Chair at large, and that Kitchener should remain with the current ten Ward system. Councillor M. Wagner voiced his opposition to a directly elected Regional Council as this would increase the overall number of Councillors at both the Regional and local levels. He also supported examining how the individual municipalities are currently represented on Regional Council. Councillor Wagner questioned the feasibility of electing the Regional Chairman at large, and also suggested that consideration should be given to amalgamating the two School Boards and placing them under the control of the Region. Councillor C. Weylie suggested that the Townships are presently over-represented at the Regional level and that local councillors should continue to sit on both Councils. She pointed out that indirect election of the Regional Chairman from among Regional Council members would pose workload problems. Councillor John Smola advised that he supports separately elected Councils and encourages part-time as opposed to full-time politicians. He also supports direct election of the Regional Chairman. Councillor Smola offered the opinion that the Mayors of the local municipalities should not be part of Regional Council. Councillor B. Vrbanovic supported the election of separate Councils, noting that in his view, separating these responsibilities would not be confusing and that direct election to Regional Council would result in greater accountability at this level. He offered the opinion that electing the COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE MINUTES JANUARY 29, 1996- 6 -CITY OF KITCHENER Regional Chairman is impractical and that it is best to have an elected Regional Council appoint a Chairman. Councillor Jake Smola indicated his support for separate Councils, noting that the Regional Chairman should be an elected member of Regional Council elected by them. He also suggested that there should be nine Regional Councillors. Councillor G. Lorentz noted that through cutbacks, the Province is suggesting that the Region must be downsized and questioned how local politicians could liaise with a separately elected Regional Council. Mayor Christy voiced his support for combined local and Regional Councils. He also stated that the Regional Chairman should be a member of Regional Council, and be elected by Council itself. Councillor J. Ziegler indicated his willingness to put forward a motion endorsing a strong two-tiered government and continuing the practice of having members of local councils sit on Regional Council. Councillor M. Yantzi questioned this approach, noting that Council has already endorsed the two-tiered system and that representation on Regional Council is a Regional decision which should be dealt with at Regional Council. Several Council members indicated that they would not be bound at Regional Council by a position taken by the majority of members on Kitchener Council. Mr. T. McKay suggested that if there is to be indirect election by Regional Council, the issue of the term for the Regional Chairman should also be considered. Mayor R. Christy asked that these discussions and others involving rationalization of services and budget issues should be continued. Mr. T. McKay suggested that L. Fryfogel poll members of Council on a suitable date for the next roundtable meeting with a date to be determined on Budget Day, February 2, 1996. Councillor John Smola suggested that staff prepare a report outlining opinions expressed this date for the benefit of Councillor Redman, who sits on the Committee dealing with governance issues. Councillor J. Ziegler suggested that the issue of governance should be focused by a vote indicating what the majority of Kitchener Councillors feel is appropriate. Councillor M. Wagner indicated an interest in adding some of his own comments to a motion which would be voted on at an appropriate time. Councillor J. Ziegler suggested that the minutes of the meeting this date should be prepared and the issue discussed at the next regular Council meeting as part of the Committee of the Whole. On motion, the meeting adjourned at 3:45 p.m.